(intro)

Welcome to The Gold Collar Investor Podcast, with your host Pancham Gupta. This podcast is dedicated to helping the high-paid professionals to break out of the Wall Street investments and create multiple income streams. Here’s your host Pancham Gupta.

Dave Zook

Hey, this is Dave Zook. I listen to Pancham at The Gold Collar Investor Podcast. And so should you.

Pancham Gupta

Welcome to The Gold Collar Investor Podcast. This is your host Pancham. I really appreciate you for tuning in today. My guest is Andrew Keel on the show. He is the CEO of Keel team, LLC, a ‘MHU Top 100’ owner of manufactured housing communities with over 2,000 lots under management. His team currently manages over 30 manufactured housing communities and 11 self-storage facilities across more than 10 states. Andrew also hosts The Passive Mobile Home Park Investing Podcast. His expertise is in turning around under-managed manufactured housing communities and self-storage facilities by utilizing proven systems to maximize the occupancy while reducing operating costs.

(interview)

Pancham Gupta

Andrew, welcome to the show.

Andrew Keel

Thanks for having me.

Pancham Gupta

Well, thank you for your time. Before we get started, are you ready to fire up my listeners break out of Wall Street investments?

Andrew Keel

Yes, sir. 100%.

Pancham Gupta

Let’s do this. So, Andrew, let’s go over your background, how you got started in your career and what you’re doing now, which is the Keel Team. I see your name of the company, like how you got to where you are today?

Andrew Keel

Yeah, it’s a pretty interesting story. I went to college in South Dakota. I played sports. I did some internships. One of my internships that shaped my entire career was at Merrill Lynch. I was working at Merrill Lynch on September 29, 2008. I know that was quite a while ago. But if you go back, that was the day that was the largest drop in the stock market in a single day at the time. I was the poor little intern sitting out front answering phone calls all day. So, I was just answering phone calls in the FAs, the financial advisors. I was just funneling them calls all day long, and I was talking to people that literally just lost over half of their net worth in a matter of a few hours. So, people were freaking out, and I was sitting behind the desk hearing all of this.

That day changed everything for me. I completely lost trust in the traditional financial sector. And ever since then, I have been looking for alternative ways to create cash flow and to build wealth. So, I was down in Central Florida working in a sales position. On the side, I was flipping houses and wholesaling single-family real estate. When I was doing that, I was mailing out letters, probates, divorce, out of state owners. I got a lead on two mobile homes up in Ocala, Florida, based in Orlando. So, just a few hours north. I went up there. It was a motivated seller. He said, “Hey, just give me $2,000 cash, and I’ll give you the titles to these mobile homes.” I had no idea about mobile homes or anything about them. I just knew it had to cost way more than $2,000 to buy those mobile homes. Because these are nice vinyl-sided shingle roof homes.

So, I went up there. I got the titles. I came home and got on YouTube, and typed in ‘how to make money with mobile homes.’ A guy named Lonnie Scruggs popped up and changed my life. He taught a course — Deals on Wheels. He has a book. He taught a course on how to buy mobile homes and sell them on contract to an end buyer. So, I did that with these two. I fixed them up a little bit. I cleaned them out, and then sold them for $2,500 down and $250 a month for five years. So, I was like, this is amazing. I created cash flow. I was sold on that model and went ahead and did 20 more of those Lonnie deals, as they’re called.

Through that process, I met a park owner. He was like, he loved me. He’s like, “Hey, I’m going to start giving you homes in my park, so you can rehab them. I just want lot rent as the mobile home park owner.” So, he kind of took me under his wing and showed me the model of raising money from investors. He actually is the one that helped me get into mobile home park ownership, because he said, “Hey, it’s more scalable. There’s better financing, and there’s better tax benefits.” I said, “You know what? I’m going to go in.” I had 20 of these deals going and all of that. Cash flow was covering all my monthly expenses. I stopped cold turkey from flipping houses and wholesaling, and went fully into mobile home park investing and went to all the seminars and got educated.

My very first deal at one of the seminars, I met a guy from Goldman Sachs, who was my very first investor. He took a huge risk on me and invested in my very first mobile home park. It was an absolute home run. We refinanced out all the initial capital within 18 months. Then he said, “Hey, let’s do it again.” So, we did it five times. My first five mobile home parks were with the same investor that worked at Goldman Sachs, and that changed my life. I had a track record. Since then, I’ve been syndicating. Now my portfolio is up to 34 mobile home parks. We also own 11 self-storage facilities, and we’ve broken out of the rat race.

Pancham Gupta

That’s an awesome story. So, your day at Merrill Lynch, were you in New York for that, or were you in Orlando area? Where were you?

Andrew Keel

I was not. I went to school in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. So, I was in the Sioux Falls branch of Merrill Lynch, and eventually turned into Merrill Lynch, Bank of America. They did that merger while I was an intern there as well. So, it was a crazy time back in 2008.

Pancham Gupta

Yeah, I know. The reason I asked that was because I was in New York, and it was crazy. I used to take subway back and forth from work. And on subways, it was literally — the topic of discussion, no matter where you look, there were people who are really, really sad or lost a lot of money around that time. I actually interned at Lehman Brothers, which went back, bankrupt, right? A lot of my ex-colleagues pretty much lost everything in that crash. It was really, really sad. Going back from that experience to buying the two mobile homes, and then finding this guy who actually sold you the mobile homes, and your partner at Goldman Sachs, it’s been quite a journey, right? At what point did you quit your job? Did you work as a full-time employee?

Andrew Keel

I did. Yeah, I was a salesperson. I came down after college. I didn’t have any money, so I was working as a sales representative. Then I eventually became a sales manager. I worked four years at a marketing and branding firm here in Orlando. Eventually, I was able to offset my income with those mobile home, the Lonnie deals, where I was selling them on contract. So then, I had enough income coming in. I paid off my truck, so I was just bare bones. That enabled me to quit and fully go into real estate.

Pancham Gupta

Got it. Okay. Cool. So, let’s talk about mobile home parks. You got your first mobile home park with this investor from Goldman Sachs. So, your experience, can you talk about — for people who have not heard about mobile home parks, what are they? What’s the kind of operation like for a mobile home park?

Andrew Keel

Mobile home parks, they have this stigma of trailer trash and slum lords. But it’s actually a good thing that that has that stigma, because it keeps some investors out. I always tell the story of the very first person that I approached to invest with me. It was like the wealthiest guy my family knew. He happened to coach my basketball team when I was growing up. We went to the Citrus Club in Orlando, which I know you’re in Orlando. So, you may know. It’s like a fancy country club type of place downtown Orlando. I showed him my pro forma, I showed him my slide deck and said, “Hey, I want to buy this. I want you to invest with me.” He said, “Andrew, I love you like my own son, but there’s no way that I’m investing in a trailer park with you.” He gave me a hug and sent me on my way. And it was just the stigma of investing in that that wasn’t attractive to him.

However, those deals, I was able to partner with the Goldman Sachs gentleman that I met at the seminar. It turned out to be homerun deals. So, I think the stigma keeps some people away. But that’s not the best part of mobile home parks. I think the best part in mobile home parks is the limited supply. Every year, there’s more mobile home parks torn down and redeveloped into other higher and better land uses than there are being built brand new. Because it’s very hard to get a mobile home park developed through the zoning, and then not in my backyard, and all of that. So, it’s really, I think, one of the only commercial real estate asset classes that actually has a shrinking supply. So, you consider the supply dynamic and then you look at the demand dynamic.

This is Econ 101. The demand for affordable housing is off the charts. Nobody even argues that. It’s a major problem in the United States. So, when you have that, you can test it too. When we buy mobile home parks, we put up a test ad. We test the demand for the homes that we have available, and it’s off the charts. You’re talking 100 people a day reaching out in some markets. So, we have a strong demand, limited and shrinking supply. It’s a goldmine. It’s a really great opportunity.

Pancham Gupta

For someone who’s listening, I know you mentioned about all the great things that are going for mobile home park. But someone who has never even looked at one or don’t know what it is, can you describe it for them — what it is, and why the stigma that you’re talking about like that?

Andrew Keel

It’s basically a plot of land, and it’s separated out into lots. Then there is a manufactured home, a home that’s been built in a factory off site. They’re typically smaller, 14 x 70-foot-long rectangles, that are typically two- or three-bedroom manufactured homes that are brought in and set up on the different lofts in the mobile home park. Our model is the tenants will own their homes. They will pay us lot rent for basically having their home on our land, on the dirt. So, they’re paying lot rent every month in that, where we buy in secondary markets throughout the Midwest. We’re cashflow focused. We’re not buying in the hottest markets, the class A market. We’re buying in the secondary markets focused on cash flow, not betting on appreciation. We’re basically charging lot rent around $350 a month. Our expenses on that gross revenue are typically around 35% of the gross revenue. Because all we’re paying for — since we don’t own the homes — is insurance, taxes, management. That’s pretty much it. We don’t have that big repairs and maintenance bill because we don’t own the homes, if that makes sense.

Pancham Gupta

That makes a lot of sense. This sounds so simple, Andrew. Okay, you just have lots, and you just said a lot rent. So, what’s so difficult about mobile home investing?

Andrew Keel

It’s affordable housing. That’s a great question. Because a lot of people, it sounds all rosy. But it is affordable housing. You’re dealing with a very fragile, in some aspects, group of tenants. It’s hard to manage. I think it sounds very easy to manage because you don’t own the homes. But it is that tenant base that you have to follow up with. We have systems in place that we’ve built over time for collections purposes, and for occupancy to make sure that the things are maintained. Because people are notorious for putting a washer and dryer out on their front yard. We have violations and rules and things that we keep up with. So, it’s management intensive. But if you can find a good operator that can manage well, returns could be pretty attractive.

Pancham Gupta

Got it. So, what you’re saying is, it’s not as rosy as it sounds. It’s like just a lot rent. Because if you have a single-family home, then you have to manage the building, the property and the stand and trash toilet, all that stuff. In this case, would you say — is it easier? Or is it more difficult than to manage, let’s say a smaller, typical, same size, multifamily building?

Andrew Keel

I would say it’s definitely easier because you’re getting scale, right? When I started, I had like six single-family homes spread throughout Central Florida that I got through owner financing, through my off-market endeavors. And it was just not scalable. If I had a repair over here and then had to replace an AC system, it didn’t correlate to the other units. It was just that cash flow was gone for the year. So, if one tenant moves out but you have 100 lots, you still are diversified enough to not have all of your cash flow disappear. So, I would say it’s easier, but there are nuances to it. For example, a lot of mobile home parks were built over 50 years ago. Probably more than that, probably like 70 years ago, back in the ’60s and ’70s is when a lot of these were developed, when there were some attractive government financings to get these things built.

A lot of mom-and-pop owners are who built these things. So, you have that dynamic which is great. Because from an acquisition standpoint, we’re able to get some good deals, because we’re buying from mom and pops. I think over 70% or something like that of the mobile home parks out there are owned by mom-and-pop owners. Whereas if you look at apartments, over 90% of apartments over 50 units are owned by professional operators that own three or more properties. So, it’s just a different dynamic there. But it takes a very hands-on approach to make sure that the properties don’t get out of hand, if that makes sense.

Pancham Gupta

Yeah, so, is that stat still true, that 70% to 80% is owned by mom and pop to date?

Andrew Keel

Yeah, from everything I’ve subscribed to, that’s what I’ve heard it. Maybe 60% now. I know that during the pandemic, mobile home parks have become more and more popular because of the items I just mentioned. But it’s still, by far, the majority of the 44,000, mobile home parks in the United States are owned by mom-and-pop investors.

Pancham Gupta

Got it. So, given that there is this large rent here, how do you really value-add? You can’t get into the homes and start fixing them up and increasing their lot rent. Because what kind of value-add things can you do to a mobile home park?

Andrew Keel

I’ll give you the top three, because there’s so much we can do. But the top three, a lot of these parts are owned by mom and pops. They have a lot of equity. They don’t owe a lot on these things, because they’ve owned them for 30 years and fully depreciated them. The number one thing is vacant lots. It’s a lot of work to bring in a home, get it set up, get it inspected, get the utilities hooked up. So, mom and pops, they’re making a couple 100 grand a year when one home goes vacant, and they miss out on $350 a month in lot rent. They would just let it go vacant. They wouldn’t fill that vacant lot.

So, a lot of the parks that we’d buy are 60% to 70% occupied. We can buy those homes, bring them in, and get them set up. And what mom and pops didn’t realize is, hey, when you fill those vacant lots and you get that income increased, it increases the value of that property significantly. Every occupied lot, based on what lot rent is, could be worth $35,000 to $45,000, if not more than that, if the market rents are higher. So, they weren’t looking at it from a 30,000-foot view. They were just looking at it as a, “Hey, that’s $350 a month that I’m going to miss out on,” instead of spending $15,000 to $20,000 to fill that vacant lot again. So, that’s number one. It would be filling vacant lots.

I would say number two would be sub-metering water sewer. A lot of the mom-and-pop owners pay for the water sewer and trash. So, we’ll bill that back to the tenants, and that’ll cut down on 10% of our expenses right away. Then I would say number three would be — I would say filling vacant homes. Mom and pops are notorious for, “Hey, there’s six or seven vacant homes that we own in this park.” But the mom and pops would do all the work themselves. Now they’re 75 years old, and they don’t have the energy to do that anymore. So, we’ll come in and spend $4,000 or $5,000 to get the home livable again. Sell the home, get the $5,000 back that we just put into it, and now we’re getting a $350 to $400 a month lot rents on that unit just by putting the energy and time into getting it make ready.

Pancham Gupta

Got it. So, you’re not going to that utility question. But I’ve heard and I’ve been to a couple of mobile home parks where it’s not city sewer or city water. There is this wastewater management treatment plan on site which takes care of all these things. Do you have parts like that? And if so, do you still sub-meter those?

Andrew Keel

It depends on the state, what the rules are for each. We do have one park on well and another park on septic. It actually has 67 individual septic tanks. That’s why now our model is a little different. We focus on city water city sewer, because that’s a lot of liability and expense to replace. I would say three or four times a year, you have to replace the lateral lines, when you have 67 septic tanks with individual leach fields for each of them. That now they’ve reached that life expectancy of being 50 years old, you’re going to have to replace three or four of those a year. They cost three to four grand each time you have to replace them. So, the private utilities are just going to be more expensive. In most states, you are allowed to still bill back for the usage of the water and the sewer.

Pancham Gupta

Got it. Okay. But you personally prefer city water, city sewer. If it is not on that, have you converted your parks into city water, city sewer after takeover?

Andrew Keel

We haven’t converted. There’s lower hanging fruit out there, other parks that don’t require all that. Because that’s a major project. You’re talking half a million dollars and up to get something like that done. So, we go after the lower hanging fruit that is already has the infrastructure. Our big value-add is we just focused on infill. Hey, if it’s a park that’s 50% occupied but has great infrastructure, and the water lines and sewer lines are good, that’s the kind of deal we look at all day. Because we can come in, get the homes from the manufacturer, bring them in, set them up on the lot, and add the value instantly, refinance out the initial capital, and then hold it into perpetuity. That’s our model.

Pancham Gupta

Going back to your thing. You were mentioning that the supply is shrinking, right? They are not building a lot more. Why is that given that they provide nice affordable housing and all that? So, why is that? If someone listening can’t figure that out, what would you say that’s the case?

Andrew Keel

It was really this NIMBY. I’m sure you’ve heard it — “not in my back yard.” Everyone thinks that if a trailer park is built right behind in my subdivision, it’s going to bring the value of my house down. So, there’s that kind of stigma that we talked about earlier that comes with a trailer park or a mobile home park. However, I think if a lot of people saw what a brand-new manufactured housing community looks like today, they’d be really impressed. It’s nicer than a subdivision. It looks very similar to that. But I think it’s that, along with the fact that the property taxes that are generated from a mobile home park, are not the same compared to a multifamily complex or a subdivision.

Because if you think about it, the mobile homes are worth maybe $25,000. The annual personal property taxes on those mobile homes are maybe $200 a year, $200 or $300 bucks a year off of each of the tenants. Then the real estate taxes are not that much either, because it’s just a land. There are some improvements, which would be like the utility infrastructure. But it’s a loss leader. Because, also, a lot of these affordable housing units, for example, it costs $12,000 to $15,000 a year to put a kid through public school. So, if you have one mobile home that has three kids and they’re all in public school, and you look at what that one mobile home generates in terms of tax revenue versus what it costs to put them through school, it’s a loss leader. Same thing if they don’t have health insurance, and they’re going to the emergency room every time they get sick or have an injury or something like that. There’s economic reasons, in addition to the zoning restrictions on how hard it is to get a new mobile home park zoned for development.

Pancham Gupta

Got it. Okay. Cool. So, let me switch gears. Can we talk about the example that you did, the first deal or any deal that you’re going to talk about, or the one that you said you cashed out, refied, on the numbers? How big was a deal? What did you buy it for, if you still have it? Or if you’ve sold it, what did you sell it for and all that? What kind of value-add did you do?

Andrew Keel

Yeah, I could take you through my very first mobile home park, my darling, Quail Run Mobile Home Community outside of St. Louis, Missouri. This one, I have some case studies on my website where you can see several other deals that we’ve done. But this one was a darling, the very first deal. The annualized cash-on-cash return was 74.15%. I mean, just an absolute home run. Now, this was a time where interest rates were different than they were today. But it basically was a very easy lift. It was 67 lots outside of St. Louis, Missouri. The infill was filling, I think, eight vacant lots, removing a couple rundown homes that were beyond repair and then rehabbing another, I think, seven or eight homes. Then the water company, its city water. But the water company had increased the rate that they were billing for water sewer. But the current owners, the mom and pops, they never updated what they were charging the equation. They were charging to bill back the tenants for water. So, there was a loss.

We thought it was from leaks when we bought it. We’re like, okay, we’re going to get the whole place checked for leaks. We couldn’t find any leaks. Then when we checked the equation and due diligence, we’re like, wow, they’re losing $17,000 a month. Not a month. A year. $70,000 a year off of their water sewer recapture. So, if we could fix that, well, you take that $17,000 in NOI, and you put that on a six cap and look at the value created off of that, it’s huge over something so small like that. So, it was that filling loss. That’s our typical deal — raising rents up to market. We bought it for $1.34 million, June 30, 2017. The equity from myself and the gentleman from Goldman Sachs, we put in 400k in initial. It was recourse upon acquisition for both of us, and we did a cash out refi in April 2019. We pulled out just under $800,000 from the refinancing event. Then there was additional cash flow distributions along the way as well. So, the new debt was non-recourse, Fannie Mae, locked in for 10 years at an extremely low interest rate with a portion of interest only.

That is our model. Buy with regional financing. Fix it up. Because the Fannie Mae debt requires the property to be at a certain level at once, off-street parking. They want the hitches not to be out front of the homes. They want those covered up or removed. They want certain things that we’ve gone through the process before. So, we know how to get properties from mom-and-pop regional bank financing, to agency financing, where we can get non-recourse and interest-only periods and things like that. That’s our whole model. Buy regional. Get it refinanced into agency debt. Pay back all the initial capital and then some. Then hold it into perpetuity for the cash flow. So, we still own Quail Run even after those numbers. It wasn’t a sale that we had to do to hit those return numbers. It was a refinance. We’re able to pay back the initial capital and then some to hit those return metrics. Then we still own it, and we still get distributions every quarter off the cash flow. So, that’s what I would call a homerun deal.

Pancham Gupta

That’s awesome. Have you sold any deals since you’ve started this business, or you’ve kept all of them?

Andrew Keel

We sold one deal. It was in a market that we just lost the leaf in. We lost trust in it. We just had some bad experiences there, and we got what Sam Zell calls “a Godfather offer.” About a year ago, we sold that year and a half ago. It was more than we would have paid for the asset. It was able to get us over 25% cash-on-cash returns. So, we exited that deal before fully finishing the value-add projects.

Pancham Gupta

Which market was it?

Andrew Keel

It was in southeast Iowa.

Pancham Gupta

Iowa. Okay. To anyone listening, if they’re looking at that market, they know to be careful. All right. Sounds great. What’s your model like? I know you talked about the model. What’s your typical deal size now? Is it still you would do a 40-pad park, or would you have a certain criteria that you fit?

Andrew Keel

Yeah, we’ve fine-tuned our criteria. We’re typically looking for 50 lots or more. 50 to 99 lots has really been our area that where we play. Because if you get 100 lots or above, these big private equity firms have come in, and we just can’t compete with them. Their cost for capital versus ours just doesn’t make sense. So, 50 to 99 lots in secondary markets throughout the Midwest. Your Des Moines, Iowa; Sioux Falls, South Dakota; Fort Wayne, Indiana. Those type of markets. And we want public utilities — the city water, city sewer. And we want to buy from mom and pops. Because it’s easy for us to go to bed at night knowing that, hey, we can run this property better than they could. And when we buy a deal, we know we’re making money going in.

Pancham Gupta

That’s awesome. Cool. Thank you, Andrew, for sharing that. Anything that you’d like to add before we move on to the second part of the show?

Andrew Keel

I think that’s it. I’m excited for the next part.

Pancham Gupta

All right. Let’s do this. We’ll be back after this short message.

(break)

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(interview)

Pancham Gupta

Andrew, let’s move on to the second part of the show which I call Taking the Leap Round. I ask these four questions to every guest on my show. My first question for you is, when was the first time you invested outside of Wall Street? Was it the mobile home that you bought?

Andrew Keel

It was. It was the very first. It was two deals, two individual mobile homes. Actually, I take that back. I was wholesaling houses and flipping houses. So, if you want to count that. That’s more active investing instead of passive investing. But I was doing residential flips. I had a few deals I got with owner financing that were single-family homes. So, I had a few of those. Those are my first deals outside of Wall Street.

Pancham Gupta

Okay. Any fears that you had to overcome when you bought those deals?

Andrew Keel

You know, I really didn’t. Because I knew that I was buying it at a discount, and I knew that, at the end of the day, I had a building. I didn’t have a stock certificate that I can’t control anything about. I had a tangible hard asset. That, at the end of the day, if the worst comes around, I can live in this thing. So, it was interesting that I didn’t have much fear because I knew that that was a hard asset.

Pancham Gupta

That’s awesome. My third question: can you share with us one investment that did not go as expected?

Andrew Keel

Oh, definitely, yeah. I got caught up in the hype. I bought some bitcoin at $55,000 and thought I was this genius, which was totally uncharacteristic of me. I learned the hard way. Because, obviously, it’s going. But I bought it with a long-term approach. Kind of, let’s buy this and just see what happens in 10 or 15 years. But I think we all know that that’s an interesting — cryptocurrency is different, right? It doesn’t pay cash flow, and it’s just a different investment in its own. Right?

Pancham Gupta

Right. So, do you still have it, or you sold it?

Andrew Keel

I still have it. No, I just have it. I deleted the app from my phone. So, it’s there. But I’m just going to wait. We’ll just see what happens in 10 years.

Pancham Gupta

Yeah, you’re cutting your losses right now. It’s going back up. My last question for you: what is one piece of advice would you give to people who are thinking of investing in Main Street that is outside of Wall Street?

Andrew Keel

Yeah, you know, I would say invest in yourself first. Get educated through podcasts like this one, through books, through YouTube. There are so much free education out there, that it’s amazing. It’s so awesome what you can learn just by investing in yourself and taking the time to plug into a podcast, or a book, or a YouTube channel. Because it can change your life.

Pancham Gupta

That’s awesome. Well, thank you, Andrew, for your time here. How can people connect with you if they want to reach out and find out more about your company?

Andrew Keel

The best way to get in touch with me would be through my website. That is keelteam.com. It’s keelteam.com.

Pancham Gupta

Awesome. Thank you, Andrew, for your time.

Andrew Keel

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Pancham Gupta

I hope you enjoyed my show with Andrew. He’s actually — I didn’t know that we’re neighbors. He’s not that far away from me where I live in Orlando now. Definitely check out his website and his podcast. This is Pancham signing off. Until next time, take care.

(outro)

Thank you for listening to The Gold Collar Investor Podcast. If you love what you’ve heard and you want more of Pancham Gupta, visit us at www.thegoldcollarinvestor.com and follow us on Facebook @thegoldcollarinvestor. The information on this podcast are opinions. As always, please consult your own financial team before investing.